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Ever since learning about the possibilities of a liquid ocean under the surface of Europa years ago I've been completely enthralled by the idea.
This seems like the single best chance we have of finding life (primitive or not) off Earth.
How is the cost an issue for answering one of the most fundamentally important questions we have with respect to understanding the universe?
If I could vote this up 1000 times, I would. Europa is where we should be looking for extraterrestrial life. It could be NASA's biggest mission since going to the moon if they would push for it....
Yes. But the only mission to Europa currently approved and under development is the European Space Agency JUICE spacecraft (for JUpiter Icy Moon Explorer). It will also study up close the 2 other Jupiter moons for which enormous interest exists.
Before we see actual mission to probe beneath the surface it could be 2050+ time frame. Traveling to Jupiter takes like 7+ years with normal spacecraft. Radiation shielding, etc. all big expensive requirements that reduce the amount of missions that will be send this far out.
The only mission thus far that actually landed on a planet in the outer solar system (beyond mars) is the European Space Agency's Huygens probe that landed on the Saturn moon of Titan.
So we have to wait and see what missions get funding. If it was up to me funding for space exploration would be doubled with less spend on military funding. We are 1 species. An entire Universe waiting to be explored. We shouldn't even have standing armies to fight eachother if we can smarten up.
Completely agree with you. There is certainly a lot to do before NASA could consider going to Europa. If it were up to me, space exploration funding would be at least doubled, though I'd prefer to see NASA funding in the 3-4% range that it was in the 60's (which is a good 4x what it is now...).
sure you would, and you would like your taxes increased to pay for it as well, right?
Considering that literally thousands of NASA inventions have made their way to the public as consumer goods/services and that for every $1 of my taxes that goes to NASA results in a $10 benefit to the US economy, he!! yes I'd pay extra to further fund them. Although that wouldn't be necessary. All we'd have to do is decrease our bloated military budget and use that instead. It's really not complicated.
If there is life there, perhaps we should make it a point to not actually go there, but rather to do our research virtually, from orbit, until we are certain we won't accidentally kill it, or even spoil it, in the long or short term.
It is human nature to poke our fingers into interesting things. We are very funny, that way. Curious creatures.... ;)
NASA can barely pick up a handful of dirt on Mars, let alone drill into the surface of Europa. Dream on.
"...dream on, dream on. Dream until your dream come true."
It's okay. I won't hold it against you that you're too dense to understand the implications of such a find.
Don't forget about Titan! Saturn's moon! It is pretty good for life also!
Life on Titan is less likely because it doesn't have liquid water. It's far enough from Saturn to not be effected by tidal heating as Europa is. And its thick atmosphere blocks solar energy, the opposite of the runaway greenhouse we see on Venus. If there is life on Titan, it would have to be methane-based.
Yes but Titan is one of the few moons that has it's own weather. And Titan is rich in things like Methane, which has led to a lot of speculation that Titan could potentially produce methane based life, rather than carbon based life like earth life.
While carbon based life that needs water is the only life we know of, that doesn't mean that other life based on other elements couldn't exist.
Methane is made of carbon... life on titan would be carbon-based, but it wouldn't use water as a solvent... it would have to use some kind of hydrocarbon, probably ethane, as a solvent. I think you meant methanogenic-based live, where it takes acetylene and reduces it to methane with hydrogen and uses the free energy (-deltaG) for other metabolic processes. The atmospheric concentrations of methane on Titan suggest that something is putting all this methane in the atmosphere while taking away acetylene and hydrogen, and nobody knows what it is. There's either some kind of catalyst on the surface that's really good at reducing acetylene to methane, someone did the measurements wrong, or there's life. It would be pretty coincidental that someone measured methane levels, acetylene levels and hydrogen levels wrong, so that leaves choices 1 and 3. Of course, the null hypothesis is that it's some kind of unknown chemical process and not life, but discovering either would be a boon to science.
Europa gets all the attention from nascent biologists and layspeople because it (MAYBE) has water. Titan gets more attention from chemists and biochemists because there's definitely something going on down there, and we're not blinded by water-chauvinism :P.
Can we agree that BOTH Titan and Europa are VERY interesting places, that should be more carefully investigated?
No, because at best we find microbes and who cares.
Finding ANY extraterrestrial life, even if only microbes, would likely trigger the Mother of All Scientific Revolutions. Which is why I want it to happen, and perhaps why you don't.
But how does DNA work? Likely not DNA but how is the genetic code stored? It seems impossible to there with no water.
On the other hand discovery of non-DNA/RNA based life would be a bigger breakthrough than finding bacteria on Europa.
I am not sure it has to be DNA. If we are thinking mathematical. Something else not yet known. Sort of like the ones and zeros. Things appear on my screen that mimic my reality outside of the screen. There is something waiting to be found, when it comes to the true building blocks of life. The way life is built here on this planet doesn't mean it has to be built that way in other parts of the universe. But it could all be based on one basic mathmatical strategy and as long as that is met, life comes about.
Everything in the known universe has some kind of building blocks.
Titan is far more earth like than Europa. Only thing Europa has going for it is a potentially life sustaining ocean. Titan actually looks like a methane based Earth. Mountains, beaches, rivers, oceans, weather, etc. It's more earth like than Mars.
What about heat? Titan is a long way from the sun. Even methane based
life, seems like it would freeze out there. But there could be a
situation in which heat is not necessary. I am laying odds on Europa.
There is probably life of some kind in that ocean under the ice. And it
is venting which I find curious.
Regardless of whether there is life or not, we could use the water. We just need to find a way to bring it to earth.
That's the thing. Methane behaves like water at that temperature. So all life would have to be 'relative'.
I would guess that any methane based life would be very much also based on carbon seeing as methane is made from about 3/4 carbon (by mass)
But I don't hear anyone explaining how methane based life could work. CH4 is not polar like H2O and H2O is unique. No other chemical could be both and acid and a base (think of H2O as HOH.)
Other forms of life may certainly exist out there, however, there is another advantage to focusing on Europa first. Someday (hopefully) humanity will move to other planets, and we will need a planet that has water and is favorable towards our form of life.
While I agree with you that finding any form of life is a huge step forward, finding water-based life or a water-based environment conducive to human life is a bigger plus.
Europa no doubt has massive quantities of water, but also lies well within Jupiter's formidable radiation belts. Difficult to envision humans living there anytime soon. At least Titan is a much lower-level radiation environment.
You basically outline two completely different tracks of discovery. One is to find life. Any kind of life. The other, is to find habitable planets that WE can survive on. Those planets may not have life.
Correct. My point is this. We do not know that either Titan, or Europa, have any form of life. Favorable arguments can be made towards exploring the possibility of life on either planet. However, exploring Europa has the added advantage that we can gauge its suitability for future human colonization. Therefore if we had to pick one planet to focus on, it should be Europa.
There is no atmosphere on Europa to keep people safe from the suns radiation.
Radiation is just one problem, I am sure there are plenty more that seem insurmountable today (temperature, food sources, etc). With future technologies and innovation, we might be able to overcome those eventually.
Colonization has to start somewhere, and trying to gather as much information as possible is probably one of the first steps.
Nasa showed off a human looking robot the other day. Not an android
but sort of looked like a rockem, sockem robot from my childhood. They
want to use this guy to explore places in which the atmosphere will not
sustain humans.
A few weeks ago I had a post laughed at when I
suggested that machines could be our legacy if our species does not
survive. I say things are getting closer to that being the case. If we
don't get off this rock and into space, we are done. Things here are
pretty well set to go eventually. They may find our machines and bots
doing the work we used to do. And whatever finds them could think that
they are a logical life form. Especially if we program them to build
more due to any losses.
All I am saying is that if we don't make it,
it would be nice to have something left to show that we were on this
spot in the universe. Voyager has shown that our metals can survive in
deep bitter cold space. Our machine legacy could survive anywhere in
deep space even if the sun goes lights out.
If you want to go way out
there. Even the Bible says we are made in his image. Who's image. Are
we machines, carrying on in an image like that of our creator?
Europa is a big ball of ice and methane so the question is moot
You raise a point which validates the importance of the dna/arsenic findings that surfaced last year. Basically, for the longest time we though DNA required certain conditions, of which would rule out life on somewhere like Titan.
But now that we've found arsenic based DNA from an environment arguably more extreme that the average environment on Titan, we know it's a real possibility that life could evolve on Titan. The DNA simply needs to be be wired for that environment.
Can you imagine alligators on Titan that have DNA that allows them to function in that cold and breath/drink liquid methane for fuel? It's possible.
It is possible. Thinking outside the box is good, because even life on this planet is outside the box.
Check Nature for the latest on that discovery. It seems it is not what it was thought.
However, there are plenty of known extremophiles to make your point. :)
It may seem like Titan would make a good candidate also, but at this time it's not as feasible. Saturn isn't just a little farther away than Jupiter, it's TWICE as far. It takes several years to get to Jupiter, it would be double the time to Saturn at least.
It doesn't take that long, if these NASA scientist would quit doing things the old way. If we get out of the solar plane, and quit pushing vehicles against all of the gravity of these celestial bodies on the plane we could get places fast. We just need to get the vehicles up out of the plane and then drop them back down on places like Jupiter or Saturn.
That would NOT make the voyages any faster. What is needed is better propulsion systems, and NASA is working on that.
Great news. But why doesn't it mention this scientists is from Germany Cologne University. As soon as a US scientists leads it every time CNN mentions the US university. It would be nice to not see this bias. It even gives the impression here that this scientists is directly from Nasa. It couldn't be further from the truth. Besides Hubble is a dual Nasa/Esa observatory. Including European built components. Almost all science websites refer to it as Nasa/Esa.
The next James Webb replacement will even be launched by the European Space Agency on the Ariane rocket. This constant US favor reporting is really annoying for a supposed international news channel. There also could have been mention of the ESA 'Juice' mission that will actually go to Europa. As far as things stand it is the only mission in actual development that will travel to this Jupiter moon. A bit more balanced reporting just would be nice.
I see your point. Could look like he is from NASA. I'll see if I can find an elegant fix that does not hem the flow of reading.
Since Nasa's budget is unlikely to get any larger anytime soon, mission priorities need to be radically shifted away from Mars exploration which, while technologically fascinating, is likely a dry hole so far as discovering life, present or past.
Why would you say that? Mars is still considered a very likely place to look for evidence of fossil life, and yes, even current (microbial) life. NASA should have three major priorities within the Solar System: Mars, Europa, and Saturn's moon Titan. Surely we can multi-task.
Don't forget Enceladus. I think they should do a duel mission (much like Cassini) And send a probe through a vapor cloud on Enceladus while on the way to a more extensive study of Titan.
That's the line Nasa puts out for public consumption because there is a huge internal bureaucracy within the agency that depends on the unending exploration of Mars. Lots of people have jobs, careers, reputations and most of all a paycheck tied to the Mars program. Are you really naive enough to think management is going to pull the plug on a gravy train like that?
The public fascination with the notion that Mars may have had liquid water a few billion years ago is waning in light of the fact that we know for a fact that liquid water currently exists on the Jovian moon Europa and the Saturnian moon Enceladus.
So what are we left with is a search for complex organics on Mars, for which there is zero evidence. Even if these compounds formed, they would be promptly destroyed since Mars has no magnetic field to protect it from radiation.
You don't need a magnetic field, just subterranean caves shielded by rock.
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